Mary Van Geffen Episode === Mary: [00:00:00] When you have an intense child, I think you have to be really clear on what does success look like as a parent, and I think we can be caught up in a job description. That somebody else posted that isn't like, if you think that success is they wear matching outfits with you and love to go to school and , can go on three errands with you in one day, then you will feel like a failure every day. I. Because you, you have chosen success measures that aren't possible with this combination of parent and child. [00:01:00] Mellisa: Hello everyone. And welcome to the show today. I am super excited for today's guest, Mary van Geffen, who is a parent coach for spicy ones. If you like me have got one of those spicy ones, or maybe more than one, you are gonna just love today's episode. Mary has been super inspirational for me and has just really taught me even more about staying with my own self learning to regulate. In the midst of whatever chaos is happening with my kids and just really trust that they are. They are, who they are meant to be. There's nothing wrong, nothing broken, nothing that needs to be fixed. So I hope you take this conversation into your heart and let it really do its work. I also have an exciting update for you that I want to share. So in the next few weeks, the name of the podcast is going to be changing from this is aging. To thresh hold wisdom. So as you know, The original constellation of Dana and I doing the [00:02:00] show has changed and it is now just me. So I'm broadening the concept of the show slightly to just talk about all of the different changes and transitions and initiations that we go through throughout our lives. As we are aging. And how we can really cultivate an orient to wisdom for how to go through those thresholds. So the show is really going to be the same conversations with wise elders and leaders and experts in mental and physical health. Where we're just talking about what these changes and transitions look like in our life and how we can show up to them. Thanks so much for your continued support of the show. And please, if you haven't already. Go to iTunes and leave me a review. Share with your friends, subscribe to the show. All of those things will really help the show to grow. Okay, let's get into it with Mary. Hello everyone. Welcome to, this is Aging Today. This is Melissa here, and I've got special guest, Mary Van Geffen. Is that how you say your name, [00:03:00] Mary? Okay, awesome. Well, we are here to talk about all of the things related to, I would say, the different life cycles that we go through as humans, as mothers, as people who are getting older from really the day that we're born. Actually, Mary is someone who is a parent coach and works with people who are. Maybe feeling some struggles around their relationships with their kids that have got some big personalities. Mary, will you tell us a little bit about yourself before we, dive right in? Mary: Yes, I am a parenting coach for the spicy ones. I create digital courses, um, and I coach parents, and I just have a big heart for. Raising the counter-cultural kids that, um, are not, easygoing or compliant. I happen to have a 19-year-old and a 17-year-old, and I'm, uh, happily married and I [00:04:00] live in Long Beach, California. Okay. Okay, so. Dana and I had both senior content online. I as a parent who have an almost 15-year-old who I would classify as a spicy one as well, and a 6-year-old who is a spicy one in a different vein. Uh, I have just been in love with the way you bring this. This ease and maturity and I would say curiosity to the journey of parenthood. Mellisa: And I would love to know how that began for you. Did you, were you kind of in the trenches of this yourself and scrambling for answers, or was this something that you brought into your parenthood journey with you? Mary: Uh, parenting did not win. It's not common sense to me. So I came to. The journey of helping other people with parenting because I couldn't do it myself and I needed help. And so, um, I had to reach out to, I have a whole, I mean, tell me [00:05:00] how much detail you want, but because it didn't come naturally to me and I wanted that person that didn't really exist, I decided when I eventually figured it out, it out for myself that I would become that person for other people. And my mission really is that I don't want. Any child to grow up feeling like they're wrong or they're broken or they're too much. And I think sometimes traditional parenting and just the world we live in can send that message to people. Mellisa: Yeah. Were those, your experiences growing up, that you were too much and too big? Did that factor into that desire as you became a mother yourself? Mary: Yes, and I didn't, it took me a while to connect that, and I think that's part of matrescence and growing as a mom. Is that you? You were like, no, that was then I. This is now I can parent my child the way I want, but it's so interwoven and connected and yeah, I was a undiagnosed A DHD risk-taking defiant smarty [00:06:00] pants. Um. Big personality and my mother didn't have a, a lot of, um, resources and was really struggling with me. And so a lot of the internal messages I took, I brought into parenting. And so where she thought of me as bossy and too much and too sensitive, I began to say the very same things about my two-year-old at the time. And, um, the whole cycle was beginning again. And fortunately I was able to interrupt that. Mellisa: Yeah. What was the first tool or the first bridge that you encountered that helped you interrupt it? Mary: It was probably like the first huge ravine that I fell into before there was any bridges, and that was I was starting to get violent. So I, I grew up with, being raised by a redhead who just would fly off the handle and scream and sometimes hit. And, um, I was beginning to use those techniques. I said I would never use, I mean, if we can call them techniques, right? They're really coping [00:07:00] mechanisms that are a little bit unconscious, I think. And so there was a day where, um, I put a mark on my child and she was, she was kind of. Being defiant and in my face, and I was so pissed at her. And then she like twirled around away from me to walk away. And she had her dad's lanyard on his like security, um, necklace. And without thinking, I just reached and grabbed it and yanked it back, and she fell to the floor. She was sobbing, I was sobbing. And this line began to emerge on her neck. I was like, you need to take her to preschool now. We just need a break. And my husband was like, do you know what happens to families? And it makes me teary right now to think about it, but do you know what happens to a family when, when a child shows up and they have a mark on them, like we're moving into abusive territory? Right? So. I had to [00:08:00] get to that point. And what led up to that was a lot of me rolling my eyes when I would talk about my daughter or yelling or, , go to your room or, just there was a lot of negativity moving up to that, where if you had asked that version of me, I would've said it was all her. I've got, my kid is not like the other ones. Like my kid is more defiant, my kid is less able to be controlled. I was also kind of embedded in a, um, born again Christian environment and seeing messages of like, you gotta get control of your child's heart. If, and, and having their, her compliance tied a little bit to my relationship with God. So I wanna give my. My older self, a lot of mercy around that, that that's what I was, I was trying to be a good girl and it, and I thought it meant that my daughter would do what I said for her to do. And so I kind of had to fall into that ravine of realizing I'd moved, I was moving past a threshold and start to go [00:09:00] get help from for the two of us. And initially I thought that help was to get her diagnosed with something, and so I took her to a play therapist. After she left the play therapist, they said, why don't you come back next time without her and we'll talk about it? And I still at that point, thought we were gonna brainstorm about how to fix this burgeoning psychopath. Right. I ended up going back again and again and again, and two years later I was a more grounded. Capable, calm, resourceful parent that could handle yes, a very spirited, intense child. But there's nothing wrong with her. She's going to rule the world one day. She's a powerhouse. Um, but I came from a paradigm that was like, only one of us can be queen and it's not gonna be the child. And now I'm much more collaborative. Mellisa: Yes. I also come from that born again evangelical Christian background and so. [00:10:00] I actually, I think the last time my mother spanked me, I was 17 years old. So I can really relate to that idea that, this is our job as parents to, and, and interesting the language that you used. I noticed you said control our child's heart. I think it's. You know, I remember being told so many times, this is, this is because I love you. This is done because this is the loving thing to do and you are Mary: What a dissonance, right? Like, wait, you're hitting me, but you're telling me this is for love. Ugh. Mellisa: Well, and, and interestingly as a parent, because I, I can relate to so much of what you're sharing, and definitely have had my own threshold moments of recognizing that my true nature, what I was capable of, and that it was not far from what. I had witnessed or experienced in my own life and realizing that the moments where I was the most likely to react in a [00:11:00] strong, violent way towards my children, it was, it was not because I was not experiencing love, I was experiencing rage. I was experiencing being so out of control, meaning I don't feel like I have agency in my own life because this other human is. In my narrative, they are running the show. So that's, uh, it's just really, it's profound to hear you talk about it and, and especially that openly because I think it is a really, it's a scary thing to, to encounter those impulses within ourselves, regardless of the framework that we grew up in. If it was, you know, if you grew up in the framework where it was normalized and even revered to take that kind of an upper hand, or if you didn't, either way it's scary to encounter. Those impulses. Mary: it's funny because we could have, we could have a third person here who is still evangelical, who would say. Well, I never hit when I'm angry, I wait and [00:12:00] it's methodical and it's prayerful. And so there is that other perspective. I I, it doesn't work from my values, but I was asked once to be on a panel about discipline at a church and it was gonna be like a point counterpoint. And the way they wanted to have me framed is, you don't spank because you come from abuse or. , you can't control it. So that's one avenue, one way you could take. And it was like, uh, I can't be on this panel because you're acting like, like spanking's the way to go, but some of you won't be able to because you come from abuse. And it's not, doesn't jive with my values. That's a slippery slope for sure. So the approach of the therapist that you met, were you really doing your own therapy or was it that she was coaching you specifically on new parenting Oh gosh. I would say 15 to 10% was about how to deal with my daughter and the other.[00:13:00] 85% was, let's look at some of the pain that you're parenting with. Let's look at some of the, um, limiting beliefs you have and, how you're sabotaging yourself. But mostly she just loved on me and mothered me in a way I had not been mothered, so that I could see that modeled and, and see that, somebody delighting in me and lighting up and I mean, we all need that. And it's really hard to be that for our kids if nobody did it for us. Mellisa: Yeah. So at what point did you start to notice. The ship turning around with your daughter. Mary: Oh, I should have a good, clear answer for this, but um, I feel like there were little moments, like I was her, , girl Scout teacher, and so it was her and 12 other young people in a room. They're all kindergartners and at one point I. She's literally battling me for, to be the leader for these kids. [00:14:00] And I'm telling a story with little manipulatives that I made 'cause I was a wannabe Waldorf mom and it was like little flowers and daisies and all the kids are into it. My kid is standing up and going to stand on a desk, kind of hoping everyone will shift and look at her. And then she fell off the desk and hit her head. And it was just this moment where, we got in the car afterwards, and I was buzzing my nervous system. First off. I'm not made to be in a room with 12 cats that are kids. You know what I mean? So even if she had been amazing and or been able to be a part of the group, it would've been hard for me. But having to feel kind of the shame. 'cause there's some parents standing outside who in my brain I'm thinking, gosh, they don't want me to be their leader if I can't even lead my own kid. And we ended up going to the park right after because in my, somehow I had some wisdom within me that was like. Let's stay outside. Let's not go into a small space at home and then fight about what's for dinner. [00:15:00] So we just sat and I just remember thinking, wow, me a year ago would've wanted my daughter, Gina, to feel, um, wrong. I would've wanted her to know you messed that whole thing up. I, I wanna see contrition on your face. I want you to feel bad. And, um, in that moment, I noticed that I was just like, Ooh, that was tough. It was tough for everybody. I. Um, she really had a need to be seen in that moment and , to want to do what Mommy was doing. And she's not necessarily wrong for that. She's not broken. I'm not wrong or broken. It was just a hard moment and so that felt like a. A big turning point where I was able to just set of fighting what happened or wanting to blame Storm. You know, I could just sit with it and be reflective and give myself what I needed in that moment, which was some nature. Now she's 19 and we have an amazing [00:16:00] relationship and she feels so supported by me , and she's thriving at college. And so I feel like I'm a success story. Um, she's still, you know, her own very much your own person and, um, but I, , I no longer have my sense of self corded into how she performs or acts or, , does something in public. Mary: I am my own self. She is her own self. I'm here to unconditionally love and support her and set boundaries for myself. And so that's sort of the place I hope everybody can get to. Mellisa: Yes, that piece is huge. The projecting onto our kids, and I think that comes no matter what background you come from. But with a religious background, there's a huge component of this need for our kids to sort of reflect, our values, reflect where we come from, and what that lineage might be Mary: Well, because there's Mellisa: up to certain standards. Mary: [00:17:00] teaching in the church, and that is. You represent the authority of God to your child. I reject that wholeheartedly. We are not God. We're made in the image of God. But guess what? So is our kid. , I think we're here to echo the parts of God that are unconditionally loving and to practice that, um, while parenting. And it's a really hard spiritual discipline to love and have, um, un unearned affection for somebody. Uh, but I don't think that we represent God to our children. I. Mellisa: Yeah, and what you've just described is a harder practice than going to church every Sunday and doing a lot of the things that people consider to be their spiritual practice. I really want to emphasize for people listening that there's so much hope because what I'm hearing you say. As you reflect on your relationship with your now 19-year-old daughter, is that yes, there have been incredibly tumultuous times. It sounds like your [00:18:00] daughter was and is a spirited child that you probably yourself have a very, you know, perhaps intense or big personality. I have the same kind of dynamic with my son and he's almost 15 now. We also have. An incredible relationship, but the story you were telling reminded me of a time when probably when my son was around five and we had a, an interaction in the car. Where he actually got out of his car seat and came up to the front of the car and yanked my hand on the steering wheel while I was driving. And it did not go well. Like it went fine. We didn't get in an accident or anything, but I pulled the car over, you know, dragged him outta the car and had exactly that moment where it was like, I want to see. Contrition on your face. Like, I want you to know that what you just did was crazy and , you should never do that again. And it was so much [00:19:00] intensity just pouring through me. , and in part of course, because I was reacting, my nervous system was reacting to actually feeling danger in that moment. But I remember there was a woman that was passing nearby on the street where we had stopped and gotten out of the car and she. Very understandably was , of course, didn't know the backstory, but was very upset by what she witnessed between me and my son, and came up to me and was like, you need to calm down. And I. was like, oh my gosh. You know? Yeah. It. Yes, but it was in, in a way, I did actually need to hear that because , I had no control over the intensity that was just, just pouring through me. And so I also share that to say that these moments in moments like that, I remember when I was younger, feeling like my relationship with this kid is just gonna be bad. I just have to survive it. This is just how it's gonna be, you know? Mary: Yeah, and [00:20:00] that's not Mellisa: And to now be at a point where, yeah, and to now be at a point where even despite some of the things that we've been through and some of the moments that have been so hard to have the kind of relationship we have now and to have experienced the kind of growth that we have is really, really remarkable. And it gives me nothing but hope for our relationship continuing to improve and continuing to be a really. Life-giving. Beautiful thing. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, obviously you sort of had this, threshold moment and then were able to get support. I think that support is really in a lot of ways the answer because we just haven't been shown how to do things differently than we were taught growing up , or what we witnessed growing up. So for someone that can feel. This pattern in their lives , with an intense child, or with their own intensity in reactions. How does someone start to begin this process? Mary: Hmm. Well, I hope [00:21:00] they'll come and start watching, uh, you know, the free stuff I have online where I'm constantly trying to help people with ways to self-regulate and be curious about their own reactions. If you're ready to invest, , when you were talking about. You know, gritting your teeth and I'm assuming yelling at your child on the sidewalk. It reminded me , of kind class, which I teach, which is like an intro to gentle parenting. I think it's like $49 and , part of it is I talk about things that get awoken in us when. Our kid doesn't meet our expectations or they hurt us , for some people, you step on their foot. They're gonna cave in and go, why'd you do that? That hurts. That's my son and my husband. You step on my foot, I'm gonna shove you and then go, oh, I'm, I'm sorry. And same with my daughter. So we are all working with different nervous systems. So let's just name that, that the way our body, [00:22:00] different nervous assistance and different backgrounds, maybe some trauma, like we all just come with our own, um, constellation. Of who we are to parenting. So one person's path might not work for another, but. In my kind class, I kind of talk about how, for me, a monster woke up like a kind of a, a part of me that says, that's it. Now you're going to get it. , or that's it. Now I get to X, Y, Z, whatever that is. Like now I have every right to yell at you to shame you because you did XA, B, C. Other people, maybe their inner victim wakes up. Like, why is it always me, the the beggar? And it's really hard for a child to be led by someone who's inner victim and beggar comes to the surface, , and usually your body gets into that position like, gosh, I'm just trying to make a phone call. Can't you give like that vibe is not parenting well. Um. There's also like the inner teenager that's like, of course you're doing that. , who [00:23:00] rolls her eyes and um, shows disdain and contempt. And so I think identifying. , where you go to unconsciously and looking at, is that who I wanna be? And also how did it feel when my parent was that way with me? Because generally we're just recreating old patterns unless we got like a total spicy one and we weren't a spicy one and neither was our parents. Sometimes that happens, but what generally happens is I find out after much reflection that client, that mom. Was probably a spicy one who wasn't allowed to be a spicy one. Um, you know, had some big feelings, some big thoughts and big dreams, and they, she had to push them down to be loved. So, yeah, I think starting with becoming very conscious and articulate about what's happening now and what's happened in the past, because , the clearest indicator of whether or not we're going to continue a generational wounding onto our child is whether or not we can articulate what was done to us. And that comes from [00:24:00] Daniel Siegel's work. Um. And it's research based. And so if you're just starting on the gentle parenting or intentional parenting or conscious parenting, I don't care what you call it, but if you're just starting down this path, I think it begins with becoming really clear about what it was like for you to be little. Maybe that means journaling. It, maybe it means telling your story to someone else. But when I come across someone who's like, oh, I was a handful. I, I used to get smacked. I deserved it. I know immediately that person has done no work, no self-reflection, and um, they're at the very beginning because if they don't have any compassion for themselves when they were small, they're not gonna have much compassion for this kid in front of them that they're parenting. Mellisa: Absolutely. That has been my experience and , as I have done my work with my own inner child and with those layers of, my experience, that is actually the only thing that has moved the needle really, truly beyond [00:25:00] willpower, you know, to actually change not just how I react to my kids, but how I feel about Mary: Mm. But what specifically did you do? What would you say you did? Mellisa: for me within in the inner work., is that what you're asking? Yeah. , it really truly has been you know, I, I heard you say this too. You know, I, I worked with this, person for two years. I mean, it has been actually years of work and, specifically using. Internal family systems. So really being able to identify these layers of, it's like we don't just have an inner child, we have an inner, , Board of. we have inner children. There are many different parts of us that, yeah, there's so many parts that get crystallized in these certain ways and in these certain moments. And I think it's so, so, so natural to just compartmentalize and leave those parts of us behind, but really actually spending so much time with those different parts and [00:26:00] allowing them to, really actually express and feel. Who and what they are and what they were going through. But also for me as the wise relational adult to be like, yes, and I got you. Watch me, watch me adult watch me handle this. Right? Because there's, there's, it's one thing to let the child have their moment. It's another thing to say. And that's, we're not gonna let that happen anymore. Mary: And do you mean the inner child or the actual child in front of you? Both probably. Mellisa: Well in both cases, right? Yes. And that's where the overlap is. So sometimes uncanny and surreal, where I have been doing this work with my own inner child while it's being reflected in my outer world with my. With my living, breathing children and I have encountered again and again and again that my children go through things that either are similar to what I went through as a child or [00:27:00] there's enough of a similarity that it triggers something that occurred to me usually at around a same, a similar age and Mary: It's amazing how we can like put, we can almost write a script for what's happening. Whether or not it is happening, , like, oh, she doesn't have that many friends. Oh, I know what that's like. And meanwhile, if you ask the child, they're like, oh, I have a best friend. You know, and I, and so we can, we have to be so careful to be letting them write their own story and not putting our stuff on them, which is that thing I'm telling you about that the more, Mellisa: Yep. It's really, challenging to do and I feel like the simultaneous work , of consistently giving that compassion to yourself and to your child is it's really transformative, but it does take time. Mary: Yeah. Mellisa: I, I often wish that there were. Reasonable solutions. That didn't take that much time, but it's, you know, Mary: But it's, it's sort of like [00:28:00] soul fitness or mental fitness. It can't, we can't blink and it happens just like we can't build an arm muscle without doing pushups, , every other day for three months. Right. So it. Does make sense that it's, it's a retraining of the brain and the heart, and it's gonna take some time. Mellisa: Do you think that there are things, you know, we're kind of really talking about this behind the scenes layer of healing and working with the intergenerational layers and our own patterns that we've brought with us as parents, but when working with kids who are bringing these. Spirited layers of intensity or maybe neurodivergence, things like this that, , can definitely make the environment a higher level of intensity. We'll just keep using that word. Are there any things that you've found to be useful, tools that , can really help deescalate or perhaps regulate in, in a moment of [00:29:00] stress? Mary: I mean, my answer is hell yes. , , my mind gets so jumbled up 'cause I have a, a calm in the chaos class that's just a one hour of you figuring out your calm down recipe. Like how does your unique body calm down and then. There's a lot of principles in my eight week class, moms of Spicy Ones, which is a live class, and we coach in that. But when you have an intense child, I think you have to be really clear on what does success look like as a parent, and I think we can be caught up in a job description. That somebody else posted that isn't like, if you think that success is they wear matching outfits with you and love to go to school and , can go on three errands with you in one day, then you will feel like a failure every day. I. Because you, you have chosen success measures that aren't possible with this combination of parent and child. So I, I, I [00:30:00] would start at the foundation of like. How do you know you've had a good day? What does it look like? And if you start writing, well, my kid would do this, my kid would do that, then I'm gonna ask you again, take a step back to the part you can control, which is you. , you can't control another human being. You're in charge of this spicy one, but you are not in control of them. And as long as you feel like that's your job. You're going to feel like a failure. And so , who do you want to be regardless of who your kid shows up as? Who, how do you want to act? What things do you want to say? What do you want your face to look like, throughout this, this coming next day, regardless of if your kid wakes up in a good mood. And what I do find with the spicy ones, at least how I define them, is they're so highly sensitive. And in tune that our mood definitely pollutes or guides them in a direction. And so when we [00:31:00] start to say, you know what, I'm gonna stop trying to control them and I'm gonna start to get in charge of myself and my own reactions and my ability to pause and reflect and regulate before I go off, things begin to shift with them as well. Mellisa: Yeah, I just took notes because that is, it's so easy to, make that, whether it's. Whether you're actually articulating it to someone else or just running this script in your own mind, that this is what success would look like. This is how, I mean, we just have these ideas that life and family life particularly should be a certain way. For me a long, for a long time. It really had to do with the overall interaction of all the family members. Like, this is how I want , my kids that are siblings to feel about each other. This is how I want my partner to interact with my kids. All things that are outside of my control. All things that I'm just setting myself up for disappointment by spending any of my energy [00:32:00] on. Mary: And let's just say if like, that's so normal. I, I was out to dinner last night with my whole family and my daughter only has two more days left before she goes back to college. And I was building up in my brain like this has to be really connecting. We've all been kind of going off in different areas ever since January. Hit. And I wanna feel like we had this warm, beautiful evening and that was not what was unfolding. We're in the car and my son's looking at his phone and my daughter's trying to engage him in conversations, but he's kind of over her. And my husband, I can tell, is so hungry that he's being kind of not his lighthearted self. And I ended up saying out loud, gosh, I want this night to be so special and. I feel like I'm the only one in a good mood, which only pissed people off further, and I had to have a little talk with myself of you're not responsible for you. Just cultivate your own inner. Climate. I wanna be sunny, I wanna be open, but I don't have to keep the [00:33:00] conversation going. I don't have to make sure the siblings have a last moment of connection. I don't have to make sure my husband's not like being short with the kids, none of that. I just have to be my self I wanna be and give myself what I need to do that. And so I just kind of settled down and I was okay with some, spaces in the conversation. And you know, they stepped forward when I stopped trying to control and fix it Wasn't the greatest night ever, I will say that, but it worked out pretty Mellisa: Yeah. Well, you have to accept that it's not always gonna be the greatest night ever. I, , this is like. Strong language that I, won't like stand by entirely, but I had this moment of realization a while back where with kids, I feel like, especially as they go through adolescence and there's this, natural and needed separation that is occurring. They're almost a little bit has to enter this attitude of like, I don't really care what happens to you. Not that I don't care about you, but like whatever you end up [00:34:00] doing is I'll be fine. You know, because, because of those projections and I've experienced them so strongly, the ideas that. This is the kind of life that is a good life to live. And if you are a successful adult, that I can feel good about my parenting contributions that will look some somewhere in this range of an adult life. And just like letting that go so completely to the point where you're like, I'm just not gonna care how it goes. You know, , in that bigger picture sense. And that has been so freeing with my son to just be like, yes, you like football and you're on your phone all the time, and you like video games. And guess what? Like, , it's not just okay, as in I'll tolerate it, but it's like more than okay, you just get to be who you are. And I've stopped caring so much about. This, like the ideas that I have about the kind of person you are, the kind of interactions you'll have that, what your [00:35:00] relationships will be like. And of course, I'm, it's still my job to guide him and to be involved in, in influencing the kinds of choices that he makes, but less and less every day. It's kind of wild. I'm curious, uh, I know we only have a handful more minutes, but were you diagnosed with a DHD as an adult or was it during your childhood? At some point you said you were undiagnosed, but at what point did that occur? Mary: I got diagnosed when I went to get my master's and was really struggling. And tried medication at that point. So that would've been, , when I was 29. So as an adult, sorry, long, long answer. , but I mean, looking back it was, not new behavior and it explained so much. I mean, we didn't know much about it Then I think it's been in the last 10 years that I've been like, oh wow. Kind of a part of an elite club of people with, that are a different neuro type and I have a capacity to do things other [00:36:00] people don't. And wow, I am handicapped in some areas and I think I've come to more terms with that since my kids hit like middle school. And I think some of that is Instagram culture where we're just so many, , neurodivergent people are speaking into the space and sharing what makes them, , tick. And so. I mean, I think it's very much a part of my sense of self. You know, there's no shame around it anymore. There was a little bit at the, beginning of, , I didn't wanna tell anybody I was trying medication and I still don't, medication doesn't do much for me other than make me feel like I'm on speed. But I'm fine with others using it. You know, everybody's different. I will make a plug that if you have a DHD, there's like an 80% chance that you have low magnesium and should be taking magnesium as a first line of defense. Mellisa: Hmm. Mary: I'm not a doctor, so, Mellisa: helpful, helpful [00:37:00] We we're allowed to prescribe magnesium on this show. Yeah, no, , that's a helpful tip. , I think that more and more people are becoming aware of the possible scenarios with Neurodivergence and. Also the hereditary nature of that. So you know, a lot of people that are recognizing certain things in their kids then go, oh wait, I wonder about me start reflecting on these childhood patterns Mary: I'm actually raising two pretty typical kids. , neither is a DHD. Um, and it's my parents that have begun to use the terminology after sort of watching my journey and my brothers and, , a lot of a DHD folk move to drugs and alcohol to self-medicate. And so that's part of my lineage. And so, um, seeing them come to terms with why they might be self-medicating has been really interesting. Mellisa: Yeah. Very interesting. So. Kind of wrapping up the conversation about kids, since you have a [00:38:00] 17 and 19-year-old, you have really already walked this journey at least to a large extent of, giving them the freedom and autonomy that needs to come with later, you know, with adolescents and with emerging into adulthood. So what would you say to people that have teens really at any age or even. Kids approaching their teens that are thinking about , how do I stay connected to my kids while also helping them develop and cultivate their autonomy in a healthy way? Mary: Well, first I gotta give a plug. Take my tweens and teen course where I talk about how you transition because the way you parent a, a two to 7-year-old is very different than how you parent a seven to 14-year-old. Um, and then it shifts kind of again, 14, 15. But I think just being aware that what was needed from us when they were little, which is really concrete, I. This is okay, this is not okay. This is allowed, this is not [00:39:00] allowed. Um, we're slowly opening that up and you had said like, giving autonomy. Sometimes my kids had to take a autonomy. So it's not always a beautiful, , even process. But the idea is that we are moving from telling to asking to witnessing and. In the beginning, we are doing all the talking and make, I think if I was gonna give one little tip, it's like. We should be hearing your voice less and less., if we were watching a movie of the two of you, you know, in the car or at the dinner table, it becomes more and more you learning from them and having that posture of asking them what's it like, but then following through with a non-judgmental, curious, . Posture because you can ask great questions and then furrow your brow and say, well, gosh, what don't? And as soon as you do that, you start to burn up that goodwill and, and [00:40:00] so the work is. Keeping a very neutral face and curiosity and withholding judgment. And maybe in the beginning, that just means you're not saying anything judgmental. You're just going, oh wow, that's interesting. And maybe you make a mental note, I gotta come back 'cause that's not okay. But I, I'm not gonna, we have many opportunities to have conversations and sometimes your body's gonna tell you, tell 'em right now. And actually that's a lie. It's not an emergency. Be a safe space for them to tell you things. Be so glad they're telling you and come back to it in a day or two. Mellisa: , That's really, really insightful and helpful. I love that. That's, the impulse can be so strong in those moments. , I'm right in the thick of that right now for sure. Okay, so tell people where they can find you. You've mentioned a few of the different courses that you offer, and it sounds like you really do have something for the different stages of parenthood as well as some of the [00:41:00] different key concepts like gentle parenting or, , staying calm in the chaos. So \ where can people find you? Where is maybe the best place to start? Mary: Yeah, if you're an Instagram person, come follow me at Mary Van Geffen. , if you are trying to stay off social media, get on my newsletter. And you can do that by, , going to my website, Mary Van Geffen, that's like driving van, GEFF as in family EN and join my newsletter. 'cause every Friday I am sending an encouraging note of like, you can do this. And it's geared towards people who have a larger than life child. But sometimes your child seems larger than life because your skills and your. Own wounding, make them feel bigger than they are. So it's kind of for anybody who's struggling in that parent-child, , relationship. And then if you're ready to take a a Class, I recommend kind class, which is just basically the introduction to Gentle parenting. It's gonna give you four techniques for, well, what am I supposed to do if I'm not supposed to yell, [00:42:00] punish, do rewards charts. I mean, gimme something to do here. That's what that class will answer for you if you already know that you have. Like a five alarm, jalapeno, spicy one. Then you should get on the wait list for my mom's of spicy ones. It starts up again in March and I teach it twice a year and it's eight weeks of kind of going alongside 400 other moms. And looking at your own stuff. I mean, the first four weeks are about you and, , what are you bringing to this table? , and then the last four weeks are about how might you shift things to see some different, , behavior or results from your child. Mellisa: Yeah. So it's really a blend of time and space and resources to go into that inner space, to that inner journey. And also some of the more maybe tactical outer pieces. Mary: sensory diets and, just things that might help. Mellisa: Awesome. Well, [00:43:00] I'm so glad that we got a chance to have this conversation. I love your content. I definitely highly recommend following Mary on Instagram, and yeah, we'll stay in touch. I'm so excited to keep learning from you. Mary: was great. Thank you for having me.